Episode #77 – Functional Medicine And Wellness With Dr. Daniel Kalish

Dr KalishDr. Daniel Kalish is with us this week to discuss what functional medicine is and how it can help you on your journey to wellness. If you’re finding that conventional medicine is struggling to find a cause for your symptoms but has ruled out any life-threatening cause, integrative and functional medicine may have the solution.

Dealing with long term chronic health problems such as pain, fatigue, weight issues and depression can all benefit from an alternative approach, and Dr. Kalish has been working to find a solution for patients for over two decades. Through the Wellness Center and the Kalish Institute, practitioners are blending scientific medicine with natural cures to solve deep-rooted, non-urgent health problems that conventional medicine isn’t placed to take time over.

Lab testing will determine the cause of the problem, which tends to lie in four main areas: the liver, the brain, the hormonal system or the digestive system. Sometimes a combination of health issues can be at work. Once the imbalance has been identified, therapies and remedies can be suggested for the patient. Listen in to see how this functional approach to wellness could impact your own routine and answer the questions you have about your own health.

Further reading, consultations and advice available at The Kalish Wellness Center

Find more information on practitioner training through The Kalish Institute

Books available:


Melissa: Welcome Dr. Kalish. Thanks so much for taking time to be on the program today.

Dr. Kalish: Thank you. I’m glad to be here.

Melissa: I’ve been wanting to have you on for a while Dr. Kalish because I heard you speak at the Paleo f(x) conference last time, not this year unfortunately as we were saying before we got started. We both missed it this year. But there were several fascinating topics that you talked about there. I wanted to get that out to my listeners so they can understand some of the things you do to help people restore their health and recover not just body health but brain function as well.

One of the biggest roadblocks for many people who are having issues with their health is they’re not really sure about the kind of practitioner they might need to see. What I consider conventional medical practitioners are the everyday doctor that you might see or might be your family doctor. Then there are integrative medical doctors and then functional medical doctors which is what you are.

Could you give us an overview of those three different types of doctors and how they could help you or not help you?

Dr. Kalish:  Yes, this is complicated. You would think that there’d be more coordinated, but there is not. I think what that means is that it’s up to patients to figure out who they should see. It’s not necessary that one person is going to -if you see the wrong doctor then they’re going to necessarily send you in the right direction. In a normal world, it would be like that. But our world is siloed too much.

Conventional medicine, the training and expertise is oriented around prescribing drugs and recommending different types of surgery and exceptional quality and emergency medicine – a dog bite, a car accident, a heart attack, those kinds of problems. I would say an almost catastrophic and complete failure to deal with long term chronic conditions like chronic fatigue, autoimmune diseases, thyroid problems, that kind of thing.

So if you have acute symptoms, if you  have suspicions that there is a brain tumor, if you’re having anything that sort of an alarm bell going on, you have to go to conventional medicine because that’s the group that’s really best prepared to analyze if you’re in a life threatening situation or not. The problem is that they’re not good at admitting that they are not good at chronic conditions. So they try to treat chronic conditions in ways that really don’t work very well. I would out weight loss, depression, and fatigue right up there with chronic conditions that are not treated well in conventional medicine. So that’s one thing.

The second step is if you have a chronic long term problem and you’ve seen a conventional doctor and you know that there’s nothing life threatening. You know that you have a digestive problem but they ruled out colon cancer or you know that you’re tired all the time, but they ruled out that there’s some kind of tumor or cancer going on or something like that. So you’ve got a clean bill of health and you know there’s no urgent medical issue then you move on. Then you have really like these two choices these days. One would be an integrative doctor, integrative medicine practitioner and the other would be functional medicine.

So integrative medicine is a larger, more blanket term; the term integrated, obviously they’re integrating conventional, medical ideas with alternative medical ideas. So you might have an integrative doctor that does medical acupuncture or that recommends massage and colonics; or an integrative medical clinic that has chiropractic naturopathic medicine and homeopathy altogether.

So, integrative clinics tend to imply that there’s a whole bunch of different alternative therapies under one roof. So you might see the integrative medicine department at Mayo Clinic for example which I know really well. It’s an amazing group of doctors. They offer massage, acupuncture. They do a lot of research on different herbs and vitamins and minerals and those kinds of treatments. They offer meditation and psychological kinds of relaxation techniques. So it’s a very comprehensive view of what could be offered in the alternative world. So that would be an integrative medicine practitioner.

Then functional medicine is a small subspecialty of integrative medicine. So, functional medicine is just starting to gain traction in the more conventional community. In September of 2014, they opened the first ever functional medicine department at a major medical center which was at the Cleveland Clinic.

Melissa: Yes, yes. I read about that Dr. Hyman I believe. Is he the chair of it?

Dr. Kalish: Yes, Dr. Hyman started it.

Melissa: Yes and very impressive to read that. It makes me hopeful. Things are going in the right direction.

Dr. Kalish: Yes, there are groups now that are known for their expertise in things like cardiology and world famous clinics like Cleveland Clinic who are starting to adopt the functional medicine model. The reason for that is because it fits our culture perfectly because it’s lab based so there’s a lot of lab testing involved. They’re not labs that are typically done in the medical setting but these solutions tend to mostly be natural solutions – herbs, meditations, exercise, vitamins, minerals, amino acids. So it meets the needs that we have in our culture for scientific information and for science-based programs. But it involves natural treatments for the most part. Although sometimes there can be more conventional treatments.

So I think what I’m seeing now as a trend which is fascinating and I  just noticed this the last couple of years is that practitioners are starting to use the term functional medicine to mean integrative medicine. So in other words, within the field of integrative medicine, the functional medicine is starting to take over. I hear this now just in terms of how different doctors use the terms. Functional medicine is I will say in the next 20 years going to become the main delivery system of alternative or integrative medicine because it’s lab based and because it’s something that surfeits our culture more easily than acupuncture or homeopathy. And not to say that it’s better in any way because it’s not, but it’s a better fit.

Melissa: Right. Now in your book, just a follow up on the functional medicine area and I wanted to mention too that you actually trained the physicians at Mayo Clinic in your method, correct?

Dr. Kalish: Yes, they actually sat through my whole six-month class, believe that.

Melissa: Right, what people I think should know about is the Kalish Method it’s healing the body by mapping the mind. To many people this is a totally weird concept, to the average lay person. I know when I first learned about some of the stuff, I was in disbelief. But I thought, well, let’s just go with it and see what happens.

But this is really important what you talk about in the Kalish Method. Could you give us the overview of what the method is and what it does or how it helps you help the patient?

Dr. Kalish: So within the area of functional medicine, which is where I specialized for over 20 years, I’ve created the Kalish Method, which is a very simple, easy to understand approach to functional medicine programs. So we look at it in terms of body systems and we look at the hormones, the digestive system, liver and detox and the brain. So it’s four basic systems basically – hormones, gut, liver, and brain.

The discussion then centers around how those systems interact and how they impact one another and then figuring out which of those body systems is not doing well based on labs and how you can correct it with the natural program. It’s unique and I think functional medicine in one of its most unique and confusing characteristics is that it’s not symptomatic oriented, meaning that the treatment decisions are not based on what the person’s symptoms are. They’re based on what body systems have failed and what the lab work shows.

Melissa: Exactly, let me just interrupt for one second there. Now the lab work, that’s the key thing that a lot of people don’t understand. What kind of lab work would you be ordering for someone let’s say that came to you with their problem? What would the labs be like? Would it be blood tests? Would it be urine test? Would it be a saliva test? What kind of things?

Dr. Kalish: Yes, this is even more confusing.

Melissa: I know. That’s why I’m asking.

Dr. Kalish: There’s been like these parallel tracks. It’s like some science fiction book where there’s two worlds that are growing either they are functioning independent of one another. A few people can walk in between.

So within conventional medicine, obviously people do labs and they do all kinds of testing. You get MRI. You get a blood test. You could check everything you can imagine with a modern hospital based laboratory.

As that system has been developing over the last decades, there’s been a parallel system that’s developed which is separate from and often not at all associated with hospital based medicine which is all these functional medicine labs. So there are things like salivary assays for hormones for stress, which are never done in a hospital based setting. There’s a really big in the digestive tract which is never done in a conventional medical setting in the same way. There’s emphasis on liver detoxification and even on measuring amino acid levels and brain function which is not done in a conventional medical settings.

So these labs that I’m talking about, the functional medicine tests are usually completely foreign to a conventional physician depending on that physician’s upbringing and emotional attitudes. They can be very antagonistic against them and think that they’re rubbish and dangerous and bad or if they’re more open and accepting and had a really good parenting, they could be curious about it and wonder and help you investigate.

But oftentimes, there’s a lot of antagonism between these fields because there’s a lot of lack of understanding. When people don’t understand things, they get scared and then they can get defensive and antagonistic. So it is all science based. It’s just a different area of science than we’ve been pursuing in the conventional medical community.

Melissa: Got it, got it. So these are the tests you would use to determine if someone came to you with various symptoms say of fatigue or of maybe unable to achieve weight loss, sort of stuck on a plateau or something like that?

Dr. Kalish: Yes, exactly. So I think the  logical sequence is you go to see a regular doctor and make sure you don’t have the tumor and that nothing really major is going on that’s urgent. Once you get a clean bill of health and they say I don’t know what’s wrong then you go and you start to look at what are the functional problems? That’s why this area was termed functional medicine is because we’re looking at organ dysfunction prior to the onset of any real disease process. So there’s a gray area between being perfectly healthy and fit and being sick as a dog and in the hospital.

Functional medicine is fitting into that gray area so we can work with very effectively with weight loss programs assuming that the weight issue is not a medical urgent problem. There’s this gray area. What I find is that there are a huge number of people – the majority of the American population falls into the gray area. They’re not really sick enough to be put in a hospital. They don’t need medications or surgery to solve their fatigue or their weight loss issues. They need a more functional approach which includes lifestyle modifications and supplement programs based on the labs. So I see an emerging need for this now more and more so in our country.

Melissa: When you work with a patient, what kind of supplementation do you… what’s your bag of tricks there in the supplement realm because I know a lot of people have different opinions on what they should use or what they do use or what they do prescribe.

Dr. Kalish: Yes, so the Kalish Method is a very old-fashioned form of functional medicine. We test and correct adrenal hormones and we use different kinds of nutrients for the correction of the adrenals. It could be anything from DHA to pregnenolone to herbal products like ashwagandha or graviola or nutrients like B5 or pantothenic acid. It’s all based on what the labs show. So that’s all lab-based.

Then we do a lot of work around restoring normal gut function and getting the human microbiome to work properly. So if there are digestive tract infections or imbalances between the good and bad bacteria in the gut, we address that.

Then there’s also a big emphasis on detoxification. So measuring how the liver is getting rid of chemicals and heavy metals and making sure that all those detox pathways are working properly.

Then all that leads into the works that we do with the brain because the brain is susceptible to impact from all these different body systems. If you’re stressed, your brain takes a hit. If our gut is inflamed, your brain takes a hit. Certainly, if you’re toxic with neurotoxins, your brain’s going to suffer because of these other body systems.

Melissa: Now how have you seen someone for instance I know you’ve seen this in your practice and I’ve heard people talk about this happening to them is where they may be having something like a toxic metal that they don’t know about in their body. It’s really one of the underlying causes of say depression or of the thyroid not functioning properly. Is it through the test that you can find that out?

Dr. Kalish: Yes, so that would be in our category of underlying cause. Oftentimes these underlying causes are confusing and they’re not transparent to us.

Melissa: Right, I’m thinking of the person who maybe they don’t have a serious thyroid issue, but it’s actually a metal that they’ve got somehow into their system which is causing depression which might be misdiagnosed as needing drugs or something like that to treat. Where is it if you work backwards like the Sherlock Holmes style it might be quite the opposite.

Dr. Kalish: Yes, so basically there’s a test for heavy metals. We just measure for that.

Melissa: Yes and then you can determine if that may be causing depression or mood changes instead of something else?

Dr. Kalish: Absolutely.

Melissa: Got it.

Dr. Kalish: That’s the whole premise of functional medicine is that we investigate using the labs to determine what these underlying causes could be so we can remove them.

Melissa: Today, given the emphasis on doing things like colonoscopies and things like that to screen for cancer and so forth. If you have someone who’s a middle aged person and they’ve had to do antibiotics over their lifetime, they may have not done anything to repair those. And they’re going through some of these tests for cancer screening and so forth like that, how can they start to restore the gut health after decades of abuse.

Dr. Kalish: That’s a central component in most functional medicine programs is normalizing gut function. So there are two major components to it. One is figuring out what foods are going to be anti-inflammatory and help with your gut repair and eat a lot of them. Then what foods are going to be pro-inflammatory that would damage your gut and remove those.

There are some foods that are pro-inflammatory just no matter what and there are some foods that are pro-inflammatory depending on the person. So there are lab tests for this. There are obvious pro-inflammatory foods – sugar and the biggest one, what number is that. Not for everybody but for a lot of people, gluten can be pro-inflammatory. It needs to be very careful. Soy is pro-inflammatory for everyone. When an actor wants to put on 15, 20 pounds of weight and look overweight for a role that they may entertain to do, they just load them up on soy.

Melissa: Oh my God! Is this unfermented soy is what you’re talking about or are you talking about all soy across the world?

Dr. Kalish: Soy can be healthy if it’s prepared properly and eaten in small amounts. I’m talking more about soy protein powders – soy as a food additive.

Melissa: Got it, right.

Dr. Kalish: Nobody ever get sick from eating soybeans or miso soup. Those kinds of things are not a problem. We’re talking about large amounts of soy.

Melissa: Got it, got it. Now, it’s interesting that you talked about gluten. That was one of the things I was going to ask you as well because I know some people that are super healthy and have done everything to support their health in what you’ve talked about here. They may be athletes or runners or people doing triathlons or crossfitter things like that. They feel that they can eat certain kinds of gluten –containing food such as a sourdough – an organic sourdough bread or something along those lines. They don’t overdo it but they feel they can keep that in their diet whereas a lot of people just give a blanket statement and say no gluten is good for you. It’s always an irritant to your gut and it’s always bad for your gut health.

You seem to agree that some people can tolerate it and it’s not really harmful to include it. Is that based on food sensitivity test or an allergy test?

Dr. Kalish: Yes, they have all these food allergy tests because there’s a company called Cyrex Labs, C-Y-R-E-X. Cyrex Labs specializes in figuring out all these food reactions. So yes, you can test for it. Most people in my personal experience, most people who think they’re okay with gluten are addicted to gluten and don’t want to give it up.

Melissa: Yes.

Dr. Kalish: So it’s pretty hard for people to self-evaluate on this one because there’s a lot of self-rationalization. It’s just like an alcoholic which spends most of their life not thinking they have a problem with alcohol until they wake up one day and realize, “Wow, I’m an alcoholic and I better stop drinking.”

So it’s easy to figure out. You can do the fancy testing with Cyrex or you can just go on a gluten-free diet for 60 days and then go on a binge and eat pancakes for breakfast, pizza for lunch, pasta for dinner and load up on gluten for three or four days with every meal and see how you react. That’s the easiest way to figure this out. If that makes you deathly ill then you probably have a problem. If you can handle a large amount of gluten and you’re maybe in the category of people that are okay with it.

Melissa: Got it. That’s always an interesting one because like you said there are people who say they can do it. I have sensitivity to it. I’ve done the Cyrex test but I don’t have a full-blown high scale reaction to it. But I’ve kept it out of my diet for almost two years. Now I feel good.

One of the things I noticed either way when I did give it up was aches and pains in the joints and things like that disappeared. So I’m thinking it’s probably good to stay away from it for me.

Dr. Kalish: Yes and a lot of people are in that category. It’s more common than you think.

Melissa: In some of those food sensitivity tests, I know that sometimes it can happen if you’re eating a lot of something, it will come up as something you’re either allergic to or you’re highly sensitive to. Can that change if you do a test down the road and just don’t eat that food every day? For instance I’m thinking like eggs or almonds or something like that?

Dr. Kalish: Yes, food allergy testing is froth with challenges. Depending on the company that you’re using, sometimes people will get false negatives, sometimes false positives, sometimes you’ll get a food allergy test that will show just what you’re eating frequently.

Melissa: Exactly yes.

Dr. Kalish: And they changed your diet and the test will be different. So it’s a really difficult area.

Melissa: That’s good for people to know because then they don’t need to have a nervous breakdown when they have the test and it comes back with some horrific results and they go, “Oh no! I think about this, this and this.” So it’s good to maybe test a few months later again, maybe six months later and see what happens because it can turn out quite differently. I know that’s what’s happened with me.

Now, I wanted to just move on to another subject before we run out of time. But your other book, Your Guide to Healthy Hormones is another important one for restoring health. Also for weight loss, that can be a huge issue with people who don’t have the balance right. So they don’t get anywhere. They just keep going around in circles. I’ve certainly been on that path over the past decades.

What do you recommend someone do let’s say if they’re having trouble losing weight or they’ve hit a plateau or something and they haven’t really done much in the hormone testing area. What would you recommend there?

Dr. Kalish: Yes, so there are two obvious starting points. One is that you can do a blood test for your thyroid and see if that’s involved at all because it has a strong role to play in metabolism and fat burning. That can be done by conventional physicians you see.

Then there’s a salivary cortisol test for the main hormone being produced by the adrenal glands called cortisol. That also plays a huge role in fat burring which basically means that when we’re stressed, cortisol levels go up, thyroid hormone levels drop and we stop burning fat when we’re stressed. So it doesn’t matter what the stress is. It could be that your mother in law is visiting for the holidays. It could be that you just lost your job. It could be that you’re training for a marathon and you’re running too much. And it could be that you haven’t exercised enough. There are many, many things. Any kind of stress can throw off these hormones and cause people to start to save fat, not burn it. That is not what you want when you’re trying to do weight loss.

So getting your metabolism reregulated and fixing the broken metabolism that’s associated with adrenal and thyroid problems is a pretty chief component as is fixing the brain-related issues as well. Because when people have high cortisol, high stress, low thyroid hormones, they also tend to deplete their serotonin and dopamine. When that happens, people get an unusually large appetite and that’s pretty obvious for most folks because they’ll eat a normal, healthy meal and they’ll be hungry right afterwards or they’ll get incredibly hungry for sweets right around bedtime. There are some pretty predictable patterns like that.

Melissa: If you have that drive for sweets like after dinner or going like you said toward evening that should be a sign that your adrenal function is out of order?

Dr. Kalish: Well it can be. It can be one of two things. It’s hard to separate them sometimes but it can be that your blood sugar is unstable because of the adrenal glands and insulin and all those things not regulating properly. It can also be a sign that your brain chemistry is off and that you’re eating in order to try to balance out your brain chemicals. This is tricky because this is a neuro [Inaudible 00:21:26] system.

Melissa: Yes.

Dr. Kalish: It’s both the brain and the hormones interacting with one another.

Melissa: So again, would you go back to supplements to get the brain chemistry corrected?

Dr. Kalish: Yes and we do a lab test for each so you can test for the hormones like cortisol and thyroid and then you can test for the metabolites or the breakdown products of the various neurotransmitters in the urine as well. Once you see the test then it’s pretty obvious. In other words, you might have a person where the adrenal labs look fine and cortisol looks good but their brain chemistry testing looks very far off of normal. So you know they need amino acids to support the brain and the opposite can happen as well.

Melissa: That really puts a big spot right on the puzzle for me anyway looking at problems that you run into. Because as you get toward restoring your health and maybe correcting some of these problems, these other sort of more complex problems appear which someone like yourself needs to really know how to navigate to get them balanced and corrected.

Dr. Kalish: It’s surprisingly complex.

Melissa: Yes.

Dr. Kalish: It really is. Even after doing this for 20 years, it still takes a fair amount of thought to figure these things out. There are some pretty big clues though. If your blood sugar is unstable, there are predictable things that happen. You eat sweets and then you get a relief that’s pretty instantaneous. Blood sugar is going to fluctuate depending on what you ate that day.

Like for example if you skip breakfast, you’ll probably crave sweets more at night if it’s a blood sugar adrenal type problem. If it’s just there all the time and you’re just hungry all the time and you’re eating all the time and you just can’t not be hungry, that’s a little more pointing towards the brain-related issues and appetite issues.

Melissa: Got it, got it. Fascinating! I do want to mention one more thing too before we run out of time. That is your participation in the One Mind for Research conference that I believe was put together by Patrick Kennedy from my home state Massachusetts.

What was the purpose of that conference?

Dr. Kalish: Yes, the Kennedy family headed up by Patrick at this time wanted to create/serve an organization that was unified to study brain-related issues. They felt like there’s lots of national heart disease groups and national cancer groups but there wasn’t a national brain group. So they brought together 200 of the top neuroscientists in the United States sponsored by Harvard to be in the same room together for three or four days and start their collaborating work together. They wanted – the Kennedy family wanted a natural health person and so they picked me. This is kind of funny. I was in this room with 199 of the top neuroscientists and I was the natural health guy. To give you an idea, the man that created the human genome project was on my right hand side, the chancellor of UCLA was on the other side.

Melissa: Oh man!

Dr. Kalish: This was the highest level that he got of people and me, Dr. Dan.

The reason why these kinds of groups are being formed now is because there is a dramatic and frightening increase in brain-related disorders across the whole age spectrum. Autism in children all the way through Parkinson’s in older adults and depression now is going to pretty soon take over as the major cause of disability and lost work days. So we’re in an era of where it’s clear that brain-related problems are on the increase and it’s not better detection or there’s something going on. So everyone’s working to try to figure out what that might be.

It’s also very clear that it’s related to toxins in the environment. And that as we’ve made this planet quite a bit more polluted from carbon emissions, from manufacturing processes that that’s having a pretty direct impact on the human brain.

In fact, you’ll find that the more toxic that the human being is the more damage there is to brain cells and the more they’re going to compulsively overeat. So it’s directly tied in to weight gain as well. Part of the solution then is to avoid toxins. Get toxins that are in the body out to protect your brain. Then to support the brain cells as much as you can with the nutrients that they need.

Melissa: Yes and I have to say I’m really a big proponent of that view and that approach. Because the more I’ve talked to people like yourselves and been able to meet people at conferences – one stands out is Dr. Stickler there that I met at Paleo conference too who used to be their foremost bariatric surgeon in the US and taught others how to do it and completely changed his practice to a food-based weight loss solution because he felt that what he was doing wasn’t working. It didn’t have long-term results. He can achieve better results by helping people through food and also through mental issues and brain issues and brain imbalances that they had that weren’t being addressed by that kind of surgery.

That just blew me away. I was like I never thought about it that way. I never looked at it that way. It was so illuminating. Then he began to talk about how he works with patients and how if they don’t look into that or don’t address issues, be the emotional or natural or physical brain issues, they won’t get the success rate that they want.

Dr. Kalish: No, it’s absolutely true. This is all really important.

Melissa: Yes, so it’s something that the common fitness and weight loss industry never talk about and never focus on. All the direction is on things that really won’t help you down the road unfortunately. That’s what gets all the publicity most of the time. So it’s really good in a way that this is being promoted.

So was the initiative, did a white paper come out on this initiative of Patrick Kennedy or what happened at the end of the conference?

Dr. Kalish: This was their first iteration of it.

Melissa: Got it.

Dr. Kalish: That was the only one that I participated in. Then they were basically bringing everyone together from academic settings, from industry, from the FDA down to all the university heads to try to create some consensus about directions that people could go in. That is now turned into – One Mind for Research group is still going. They’re basically looking to fund. I guess it’s like an advocacy group to really focus on the brain as an important issue.

One of the main targets of the research is the veterans that are returning from the wars that we’re in now. Because we find that the signature injuries in these wars is head trauma and so there’s a lot of brain injuries. There are probably 400,000 plus young men and women that have had either PTST or some kind of physical trauma to the brain.

So they’re trying to figure out across the board how we can address these kinds of issues that are happening. Again, it’s all special. It could be autistic kids. It could be young veterans in their 20s. It could be Alzheimer’s or older adults with Parkinson’s and how to work with these group and how to try to focus research on what’s going to be the most fruitful for developing solutions early on.

Now, that group ended up – the original intent was for them to look at the alternative medicine community or integrated medicine as a potential collaborator. They ended up not being interested in doing that. So I discontinued my involvement.

Melissa: Got it. Got it. Well still I think the information that’s out there and what you’re publishing with your books, and also through your speaking and appearances is definitely something people will want to dig into and find as well as your two books. But where can people find you online?

Dr. Kalish: Yes, so for people who are interested in working together or are patients, I work with people mostly over the phone and at kalishwellness.com, K-A-L-I-S-H wellness.com is a clinic contact. Then for practitioners who are interested in training programs, I spend most of my time now training other doctors on how to do this and that’s at the kalishinstitute.com.

Melissa: Got it. The book is The Kalish Method: Healing the Body, Mapping the Mind.

Dr. Kalish: Yes.

Melissa: The other book is Your Guide to Healthy Hormones. Those are available from your website and also I imagine from Amazon?

Dr. Kalish: Yes, exactly. They’re on the Amazon as well. 

Melissa: Oh we’ll put links to those in the show notes and so people can check those out if they want to. It’s been great having you on Dr. Dan. I hope you come back and we can talk about some other issues. I’m sure there’d be questions in a lot of the things you’ve talked about today. But detoxification is a big one I’m interested in. I’d love to have you back to talk about that sometime.

Dr. Kalish: Okay, I appreciate that. I’m always welcome to come back. 

Melissa: Thanks.

Dr. Kalish: Thank you.

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