Episode #81 – Jimmy Moore: Why Cholesterol May Not Be The Enemy

Jimmy MooreIn this week’s episode,¬†we sit down with blogger and health guru Jimmy Moore to discuss his new Ketogenic Cookbook, and to look at the issues surrounding cholesterol and weight loss. Following his own weight loss experience through the Atkins program, Jimmy has started a voyage of discovery and is a well-known figure in the health and fitness field through his blogs and podcasts.

We look at the issues surrounding cholesterol and how doctors’ test results can be misleading or wrongly interpreted – especially following a major change in body size and weight. Medication is often better replaced with lifestyle changes, such as selecting the right foods. Processed foods almost always contain refined starches, sugars, salts and oils: reducing or removing the intake of these foods will help those cholesterol levels as well as reducing inflammation.

Jimmy also talks with us about the importance of ketone levels, and how encouraging nutritional ketosis through your diet could not only assist you in your quest for weight loss, but could actually work to heal your body – and you could discover some tasty new dishes along the way!

Further reading:

You can get involved in the Low Carb Conversations here

Take a look at Livin La Vida Low-Carb here

Discover Jimmy Moore’s Keto Clarity here

The Ketogenic Cookbook is available now on Amazon – order here

You can follow Jimmy on Twitter using @livinlowcarbman

Don’t forget to leave us a review in iTunes! You could win a copy of Jimmy Moore’s new cookbook, plus tons of other goodies. Pop over to iTunes now – or follow our easy tutorial here. You’ll automatically be entered into our monthly draw.

FULL EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

Melissa: Welcome Jimmy, thank you so much for taking time to be on the program today.

Jimmy: Hey, what’s up, Melissa?

Melissa: Well, I’ve been dying to get you on for quite a while because the subject of cholesterol is a big one for my audience and for me too. When I found your book and your own story and everything about it, about two years ago now, I guess, and I found it really, really helpful and I wanted you to share, first of all, who you are and why you decided to set about this big task of writing a book about cholesterol and understanding cholesterol.

Jimmy: Sure. So, way back in 2004, I went on a diet that ended up being my permanent lifestyle change. At that time it was the New Year’s resolution to lose weight, but it turned into so much more than that. And so I went on this diet and ended up losing 180 pounds in one year and obviously, very much changed my life forever. At the end of the year, I go see my doctor and he’s like, “Oh man, look at the weight loss.” And I said, yeah, isn’t it great? And he’s like, “How did you do it?”

And so I told them, I did the Atkins diet. He said, “Oh, we got to test your cholesterol.” Well, I have nothing to hide, absolutely, let’s test my cholesterol. So I get it run, Melissa, and it comes back the results and I’m thinking, “Man, he’s going to think this is a rockstar cholesterol result and he’s just going to applaud me, but I walked into the office for the analysis and he’s got this somber look on his face. And I’m like, what’s wrong?” And he said, “Your cholesterol is horrible.” And I said, “What are you talking about? And what about the HDL? That’s one of the good cholesterol. It is the good cholesterol that’s always talked about. It was 72. I think before I went on the Atkins diet, I don’t remember what it was because I didn’t care at that time, but I think it was somewhere around 20, maybe even in the teens. Not good. But now, it was 72, dramatically better from all the healthy fats that I was consuming and so I said, Isn’t that good?” He said, yes, that’s a really good number but you need to be on [4:41 inaudible] which is the cholesterol lowering medication. I said, Oh, okay, wait a minute, triglycerides, isn’t that a great triglyceride number? It was 43. He said, that is the lowest of any patient I’ve ever seen in my life and it is a great cardiovascular risk marker, but you still need to be on a [4:56 drug] and I’m going, what is he talking about?

And what he was predicating pretty much all of my cardio vascular risked on were two numbers, the total cholesterol, which was somewhere around 260 something and then, LDL cholesterol which was like 180 or 90 (something like that) and so, he’s been taught that in order to treat cholesterol, in order to treat a heart disease, you’ve got to look at just those two numbers, the LDL-C and the total cholesterol and if LDL-C is over 100 and total cholesterol is over 200 you are a great risk for heart disease. Well, there’s a lot of problems with these numbers being the litmus test of whether you have disease or you don’t have disease. No other health marker out there is at the 50th percentile and being over that 50th percentile that you’re at great risk and under that 50th percentile, you’re at less risk. So 200 is that 50th percentile. It was just an arbitrary number of all these people that had cholesterol readings and what’s the meaning of it? So the mean is right at the 50th percentile. Now, every other disease that we looked at and predicate any kind of treatment on for patients to take a drug, it’s always about 70 or 80th percentile before you even talk about medication. So guess where that would fall, probably somewhere around 260-270 for total cholesterol.

We’ve got a lot of things wrong. It’s why I call the subtitle, what the HDL is wrong in my numbers is because a lot of people, they think, Oh my gosh, I’m at great risk for having a heart attack or heart disease because my cholesterol is 201 and yet if it’s 199, okay, I’m okay. And that’s just nonsense.

Melissa: Now, the thing I like about your book is it was very helpful to me because I was just, again, getting started with all these things and thinking what was going to happen in my – as I call them in quotes, “my performance doctor had warned me that things are going to flip around as I went forward as far as cholesterol goes. The numbers are going to jump around as I was like losing weight, the same in your case, but one of the things that was of concern was the question about inflammation and how it works with cholesterol. What it really means, what it points to. And I know in your book, you’ve made the book kind of like what I call, almost like a workbook or a handbook that someone can take with them and you have these little, sort of sub chapters where it says, what does this mean, what does it really mean, how can you use it. Which I think is really cool because it’s not just a whole bunch of case studies put together but it’s actually something you can look at and use and apply.

Jimmy: Yes, thank you and one thing I did not tell about my story, yeah, I did lose a lot of weight in one year, but since then I’ve gone on to become a podcaster where I’ve literally interviewed anybody and everybody in the world of diet, fitness and health. So when it came time to writing books, a publisher wanted some books, I was like, oh, I know a few people who could be experts for my book. So I basically interviewed for Cholesterol Clarity, 29 of those experts, plus my co-author, Dr. Eric Westman, he’s a world renowned researcher and practitioner, so lots and lots of people. Besides Jimmy Moore’s opinion, I really did try to accrue the best of the best when it came to the experts. That’s kind of where I came from and so yes, you’re right.

Inflammation really is at the heart of all of these. Unfortunately, they are not talking about inflammation in doctor’s offices because they don’t have the drug necessary that will lower inflammation. What they’re not telling people is the way you lower inflammation has nothing at all to do with the drug, it has everything to do with what you’re doing in your lifestyle and what you’re putting in your mouth. We have two things that really raised inflammation more than anything in our diet. Are you ready for what those are?

Melissa: Ready!

Jimmy: The first one is, duh, I’m the low carb guy, carbohydrates. It tends to be problematic and people hear carbohydrates and that doesn’t always click for what that is. I’m specifically referring to the sugars, the grains, especially the highly refined ones and those things and for people who have insulin resistance and very carbohydrate sensitive, you just have to avoid even most carbohydrates except for vegetable carbs, corn is not a vegetable, please don’t eat that, and other such foods.

You’ll find green leafy vegetables tend to be most of your carbohydrate sources. I just had a wonderful lunch that had squash in it and kale in it and other great vegetables, peppers, so you can have all kinds of low starch, low sugar vegetables. Fruit’s kind of an iffy one. Maybe a little bit of the berries, but that’s pretty much it when it comes to low sugar fruit. Even bananas have 29 grams of sugar in them and in teaspoons that’s over seven teaspoons of sugar in a banana. Yeah, that’s not so healthy.

So that’s the one. And the other food category which is kind of controversial because it’s promoted as heart healthy and so people see the American Heart Association symbol there right on the packaging of these vegetable oils. So maybe you’ve heard of corn oil, and soy bean oil, and canola oil, all of these oils are promoted as heart healthy and you want to know why Melissa. The reason they do that is they do one thing on your cholesterol panel that’s very good in the eyes of doctors. It lowers LDL-C.

We can talk about why that’s not such a good idea here in a minute when we get into sub particles, but the bottomline is vegetable oils are actually doing something very bad to your arteries and that’s increasing that inflammation. So between all of the processed carbohydrates the people are consuming and the vegetable oils and oh yeah, by the way, those things, if you go and look at pretty much any packaged food, you’re going to see refined grains, refined sugar, and vegetable oils and just about 90% of the processed foods on supermarket shelves.

We just walk through the – I do this all the time because I love going into stores and just picking up something randomly off the shelf and there it is, wheat, sugar, vegetable oil. Next one, wheat, sugar, vegetable oil and you just go really – we’ve sung this tune for so long and we wonder why we’re unhealthy.

Melissa: Yeah, and I would add to that, salt, in massive quantities.

Jimmy: Yeah, and I would say the refined salts. Definitely, I’m a huge fan of sea salt because if you get appropriate kinds of salts and especially when you’ve stopped eating so many processed foods, you no longer get the amount of salt that you would get from these voluminous amounts. I remember the first time I picked up a TV dinner that was like a Chinese food, it was like 1300 mg of sodium and I’m going, “Okay, no wonder I’ve got to drink 10 glasses of water after I ate this.”

Melissa: Yeah, and that’s the thing people don’t necessarily pay attention to but like you said, if you just walk to the store, you’ll see what’s really in the packaged foods, and also, if you – I mean, I was just shocked because my inflammation as I’ve talked about and tell people are sick of hearing about them here on the show was way off the scale. In just a short time, by just changing what I was eating. Nothing else. I wasn’t going to crossfit. As much as people wanted to hear that, it wasn’t happening. I wasn’t in rehab, basically for all my injury so I wasn’t doing anything. My inflammation, dropped dramatically right away and then improved a little until now trying to get to zero.

Jimmy: So you’re referring to this CRP number, right?

Melissa: Yeah.

Jimmy: So that’s the C-Reactive protein, high sensitivity that you can measure your inflammation. And that’s another thing that a lot of doctors they’ll rather run your total cholesterol and LDL cholesterol because they can put you on a drug to lower those but they see a CRP that’s 8.0, they don’t know what to do with that. But as you learned and as your continuing down your own journey, you can bring that down pretty dramatically just with a few lifestyle and most certainly diet changes. I recently had mine run and the latest one is 0.4 for me.

Melissa: Oh, all right. You’re close to zero.

Jimmy: Anything under one is pretty much optimal. If you’re under one, then you really don’t have a risk for heart disease that low of inflammation, no matter what your cholesterol is.

Melissa: Right, right. That’s what my performance doctor was saying and also, you can do additional testing if you want. Again, I’m not a medical person, but if people reach out to doctors or more, still that these things are where they can test now, I think through wellness FX. They can test your artery inflammation directly, like what’s going on in there.

Jimmy: And even your own doctor can prescribe for you to go to a local center. I’ve got one here locally that will do a CT Scan of your chest. It’s not covered by insurance, but it’s only about $100 here in South Carolina. I don’t know what it is elsewhere, but for $100 and for three minutes, you sit through this CT Scan, breathe in, breathe out, and then it takes all these high res pictures of your chest to see if there’s any calcified plaque in there. And if you have no plaque buildup in your arteries, you’re going to have a hear scan score of zero. Well, guess what, if you have no sign of disease, how can you have a risk of heart disease and all the weeping and gnashing of teeth, you must take this drug, well, there’s no sign of disease and then if that’s not enough, you can get the carotid artery scan which is called a CIMT, so if you feel along both sides of your neck there’s a little artery right there and they can do an ultrasound of both of those arteries and if those come back clear, again, where’s the sign of disease? If all of that doesn’t convince your doctor, you can ask for a more specialized test what I talked about in Cholesterol Clarity, the NMR Lipid Profile test to find out your particle size and number and all that jazz and that one will tell the real tale of what’s going on in your heart health.

Melissa: I was just going to ask you about the particles because that’s only, to my mind, only recently been discussed, within the last couple of years where people are pretty more focused on the particle size, what’s going on with particles. Now, a lot of people who just have gone in and had their cholesterol done and then maybe they need to get on a drug may not know what particles mean, why they should be little or small or big or pluffy, can you tell a little bit about that?

Jimmy: Sure. A lot of people think LDL is one number and because that’s all they’ve ever seen on their standard lipid panel, cholesterol panel, is LDL-C but what there is when you start testing for the particles, there’s actually two major categories of LDL, you’ve got pattern A and pattern B. Now, pattern A are the large fluffy kind which are a little more benign when it comes to your health. People are just scared to death of LDL but there’s actually good LDL and the large pluffy kind are the good. The pattern B is what’s the dangerous kinds. These are the real small BB size LDL particles and those are the ones that can penetrate the arterial wall. The large pluffy ones are too big to be able to penetrate the arterial wall so when you have pattern B and the way you get pattern B, again, going back to the carbohydrates, going back to the highly inflammatory vegetable oils, those will penetrate and those put you at great risk for heart disease. And so, I was telling you a little bit earlier about how vegetable oils lower LDL-C. So on your standard lipid panel, LDL would go down, but what they’re not telling you is it goes down at the expense of that large pluffy LDL. They pretty much eliminate your large pluffy LDL, leave behind the small dense LDL and then as an added bonus, it does this thing called oxidizing. You might think about, like rust on your bicycle so it starts damaging that small LDL particle so it makes it even more aphrogenic to give you a heart attack and heart disease. It’s just really bad news. And so, running that LDL particle size test, the NMR lipo profile, unfortunately, if you’re listening outside of America, you can’t have this run. It’s only a test that can be done in the United States but it’s run and you can see exactly how many LDL particles there are and more importantly, how many of those small LDL-P there are. If you have a lot of small and what we share in Cholesterol Clarity is, you probably need that to be below 20% of your LDL-P number, the total LDL particles. If it’s over that then your probably need to cut back on your carbs a bit and probably up your fat just a little bit as well because that will improve that ratio.

Melissa: Now, there’s been a real movement prior to the last couple of years when Paleo and things like that exploded and everybody kind of went into all these different directions of eating much cleaner diet, but the move before that and it was popularized, I think one of the more famous people was President Clinton who went on this pretty much a vegetarian diet, low fat diet and then last year it was or maybe over a year and half ago, decided to make a change and I think Dr. Mark Hyman is now advising him on what to do. He talked about doing that and there was a lot of press around it. That was the great thing because he has heart issues and I don’t know, again, I’m not his physician but he has some serious heart issues and this was to help him with those.

What’s the good, the bad, and the ugly about that? Because a lot of people are going to say what will happen to the vegetarian, low fat movement?

Jimmy: And they’re still out there and they’re still touting that their way of eating is the best way to improve your heart health. There’s a lot that’s wrong with the low fat version of a vegan diet because fat has so many incredible properties from being able to go long period of time between meals. There’s a lot of people that live out there, Melissa, they eat and then two hours later they don’t have food, they’re going to bite your head off. It’s always funny when I hear about these airplanes that are stuck on the tarmac and the people are freaking out two hours of their sitting out there a long time. Two hours later, I’ve got to eat. And it’s like, really?

Melissa: Yeah!

Jimmy: You shouldn’t feel that way. There’s something wrong if you have to eat two hours after you just had a meal. Anyway, and so I think what’s missing as well is the fat soluble vitamins. There’s so much nutrition that can come from having adequate vitamins. The vegans definitely have it right in eating the vegetables but what they don’t realize is some of those nutrients on those vegetables that they’re consuming are not being absorbed by the body because they’re not giving it the natural resources that it needs to absorb those. So if they added in coconut based products which tend to be a little more fatty, and avocados which are really good source of a fruit that has fat in it, olive oil and other such non animal based fats then I think they can probably do it in the right way.

I know several vegan vegetarians that do it that way. And if you can add eggs to it, kind of the lacto ovo vegetarian, that’s even better. But obviously, one of the best quality sources of fat protein is animal based foods. So, it’s kind of a mixed bag because that’s why they keep that whole cholesterol myth alive because when you’re not eating foods with fat and cholesterol, yeah, of course your cholesterol in your blood are going to be low, but low is not good.

We’ve talked of long section in the book about how low cholesterol is probably a whole heck of a lot worse for you than too high of a cholesterol. Unfortunately, a lot of these vegan vegetarians tend to have extremely low levels of cholesterol. They brag about it, “Oh look how heart healthy we are.” And yet what they’re not noticing is that they’re having some major neuro degenerative issues where it affects our mood. When it gets below 140-130 I used to take a Lipitor and Crestor and got mine below 130, my wife Christine will tell you, I was an angry man and I was always just right on the verge of violent outburst. It’s not a pretty picture.

Melissa: Yeah, and I think also what happens is you have a tendency of – at least I did and noticed the change when I changed my diet of brain fog and forgetfulness and not being able to concentrate. All these things seem to be getting more and more building. And then, when I changed my diet and start to introduce more fat, good fats, where talking about here of clean fats and animal protein from clean protein sources, grass fed, grass finished, and all that, the change was dramatic. The brain fog blew off in like, less than two weeks.

Jimmy: A reason that happens, we are truly bad heads. Yeah, I am a fathead because about 70% of your [21:56 nodden?] is fat and cholesterol and so if you’re not feeding it fat, it’s going to have an impact, like you said, on your mood and all these things that you don’t even think about that food can impact but it is so directly impacting it.

Melissa: Yeah, and I think too on the vegetarian vegan concept, you really have to pay a lot of attention. I know you talked about this in both of your books and just generally that you’re not depleting yourself of vitamins and minerals that you need because I noticed that when I was getting going and doing different things I was like, this is working so well, I’ll just do more of this and less of that and started to eat less of some things because I wasn’t hungry. Just like what you talked about the people on the plane. I was one of these people who could go for hours, I was like, “Oh this is great.” But what I wasn’t doing was, I wasn’t adding in enough vitamins and minerals to bring myself back, to boost myself up from all the years of processed food and over exercising and things like that. It really depleted my body.

I think that’s the hidden sub text under there that’s not good, that people should be taking a close look at their blood work and make sure that they are getting what they need for nutrients and vitamins and minerals to keep them going. I think that’s a hidden problem with the brain issues as well, but I found my thinking to be much better, way improved. Also, memory and cognition, all these things improved really quickly and I was like, wow. This is what’s happening.

Jimmy: When you think about all these kind of crazy tragedies that happen with school shootings and that guy downed in Charleston that’s at the church, you think about, what about their nutritional habits that might have contributed to that. Now, obviously, people can have their own motivations outside of that, but I think, we can’t discount that maybe had he eaten a proper diet, he would have been in the right state of mind that he would not have done that.

I don’t know. I’ve always thought about that every time I see these things pop up, I wonder what was their nutrition like.

Melissa: Well, there’s a lot of discussion now as we both know because we’re kind of in the online world that it is so tied to brain health and depression and all these discussions that came up around, for instance, Robin Williams’ passing. I have not idea what his health was or anything like that, but there’s a lot of discussion online and offline about – was his diet and some of the things he seems doing creating more depression than he needed to have?

Jimmy: Well, he did have the heart attack and so I’m sure after that, the cardiologist said, you need a low carb diet and he probably did it. I mean, I don’t out that.

Melissa: Yeah, I think, like I said, I have been so taken aback by changes due to just diet and not exercise, but just diet that I’m now super sensitive to these things. I think that’s the thing that people from years of processed foods and from just thinking, feeling bad is normal aren’t so finely tuned to these changes. I noticed the difference right away. Not getting enough, for instance, fat in the diet or not getting enough nutrients. I noticed the feelings are down or lack of energy and things like that, right away. I’m much more tuned to it nowadays. But here’s my question for you. This is the big one. How do we overcome years of what we call, “dietary dogma”? How should people kind of arm themselves to, maybe have a discussion with their doctor and how to overcome this generally in our population today?

Jimmy: And especially for those who have been told, you have high cholesterol and you need to be on a drug and maybe you’re taking Lipitor, Crestor, Zedia or any of these cholesterol lowering medications, thinking you’re basically giving yourself a free pass from ever having a heart attack or heart disease, well, unfortunately, we shared a study in the book where 3/4 of the people who come in to the hospital for some kind of a cardio vascular related event, they had heart attacks, angina, any number of things happen, 75%, Melissa, had normal cholesterol. It means it was under 200. So if high cholesterol is the reason why heart disease and heart attacks and angina and all these things are happening, why was that statistic, 75% the other direction. You were thinking it would be more than 200 but it wasn’t. So I think those kinds of statistics should make you wake up and go, “Hhmm, maybe we’d been lied to about some of these things and maybe my discussion with my doctor should be, I want to try some dietary changes.” I think a very easy one that’s very much in vogue these days is giving up sugar. I think most doctors would probably buy in to that first.

So let your doctor know you want to give up sugar and that’s what you’re going to do. And then of course, you can say, well, biochemically, really any carbohydrate turn to sugar in the body. So perhaps I need to back down pretty significantly on the sources of sugar in my diet which would include most carbohydrates as well. Again, we’re not referring to the non-starchy and green leafy vegetables because those are very healthy. But definitely not these ones, the refined kind that you buy in the grocery store.

I think the biggest hurdle for doctors, dietitians and even the patient themselves is adding in the more fat, the healthy fats. And again, we talked about earlier the vegetable oils have been promoted as the healthy fat. They’re the poly-unsaturated fats, but what we need more of are the mon-unsaturated fats. Those avocados that we talked about earlier, the nuts and seeds, olive oils. Those are all mono-unsaturated fats and then the saturated fats which tends to be more of the meats and the cheeses and butter and coconut oil. Those are the things, because those are going to give you the building blocks for being healthy. I think if we frame it in that way, and people communicate it to their doctor, I think these are going to be healthy for me, let me do this as a trial for the next three months and watch my HDL go up, watch my triglycerides go down, watch my HSCRP, the key inflammatory marker in the body, watch it go down. All of these intangibles will also improve the whole mood thing that we talked about and certainly just energy levels, satiety. This is such a big one when we talk about Keto clarity quite a bit. Because when you eat healthy fat, and you’re nourishing your body and you’re getting all the micro nutrition that you need, you’re just not hungry. You can go literally hours upon hours between meals.

I ate that meal about three hours ago that I told you that had vegetables in it, I probably won’t eat again until maybe tomorrow morning, maybe a little bit later tonight. It just depends. But I let my body tell me when I’m hungry, not the clock.

Melissa: Right, now I wan to – before I run out of time, I just want to get to your other book which came out this year. Cholesterol Clarity came out last year and it’s available everywhere and we’re going to give away a couple of copies of that too to listeners, but I also want to get to the Keto Clarity book that you brought out this year because that’s a little more in depth on the low carb, high fat diet and it helps people understand about ketosis, what it is, how it works in the body. So, tell a little bit about that book and why you wrote that one and how it can help people.

Jimmy: Yes. So in 2004 I went on the Atkins Diet. Everyobody knows that as probably the most famous low carb diet in the world. And they may have heard that the Atkins Diet is – maybe they’ve heard terms like Ketogenic Diet or put you into a state of ketosis and produces ketones. They’ve probably heard all these vernacular if you’ve even dibble dabbled in the low carb world. Well, in 2012, I read a book that talked about measuring for blood ketones called, The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Performance by a couple of really fantastic, low carb research, Dr Stephen Phinney and Dr Jeff Volek. And in there they were talking about blood ketones. Now, the only context I’ve ever had about ketones, Melissa, was being on stick and it turned pick to purple. And most people have probably heard about, again if you dibble dabbled into low carb, you definitely bought those sticks, very cheap at the local pharmacy, $12 for a hundred of them. And so, they started talking about measuring for blood ketones. So I was like, Uh, I’m perked up now. I want to learn more. They said it’s just the more precise way of knowing exactly where you are in producing ketones. And so I go and buy this ketometer, it’s like glucometer, except that it measures ketones called Precision Extra. It’s what is called here in the United States, Freestyle Optium if you live overseas. And that was kind of cool because it was like $20 but then I had sicker shock trying to find the strips and the strips are about $2-$5 each.

But I really wanted to know how am I doing in my state of trying to be ketogenic because i”ve been low carb at that point for about seven years, so I thought, surely I’m producing ketones. Well, I test Melissa, the very first test showed I was just below what’s considered “nutritional ketosis”. And so I was like, “Okay, this might be an indication that I need to step up my game a little more.” So I started digging deeper, learning more about ketosis, why it’s so important to shift your body over from being a sugar burner to being a fat burner and it’s not just about the carbs. That’s one take home message I hope people that read Keto Clarity find is that it’s not just keeping your carbs low. You really have to do that as first and foremost, but protein also comes into play. You want to make sure you’re not getting too much protein because you can overload your body with sugar. It’s going to shock people but you can overload your body with sugar eating a chicken breast with broccoli and thinking you’re thinking you’re eating low carb. Yes, it’s low carb, but no, it’s not ketogenic because it’s too much protein and not enough fat. [Crosstalk]

Melissa: I was going to say, that’s where people seem to go off the rails is, they get into this mindset of, like you said, the chicken breast and the broccoli and think just go to town with that and I’m good. And that’s what throws the balance off and I think…

Jimmy: But I don’t blame them because we’ve grown such a fat phobic culture for the past four decades. I mean, my whole life has been fat phobia, fat phobia, fat phobia. My mom, in the 1980’s had rice cakes and fat free ice cream and all these stuff in the house, interestingly, juxtapose to our coco plus and Doritos, and Cocca Cola. And sometimes my brother and I would like, grab one of those rice cakes and start eating on it because we get bored with the food we have. “Mom, why are you eating this crap. It tastes like styrofoam.”

Melissa: Yeah, but I think that’s where people get thrown off there. They don’t realize that they’re overdoing the protein and like you said, the real key factor is if someone has insulin resistance or metabolic syndrome or something like that, they have to get to the point where the body makes the switch from the sugar to the fat. The excess fat, I should say, to that conversion. Otherwise, they would just go around in circle.

Jimmy: Exactly. And unfortunately, nobody is talking about that either because insulin resistance is not recognized as a real thing.

Melissa: Oh, that’s my hobby horse right there. Mainly because I had massive insulin resistance and I was so depressed looking forwad two years ago now, talking to my performance doctors, I said, “You know, what about this. and he said, well, some people can reverse it and some can’t.” And I said, can I? And he’s like, “I don’t know. We’ll going to have to experiment together here and see what we can do.” But it’s very delicate balance and I think that’s one of the things that’s not highlighted enough to people that if they have that already, if they’re already setup with that for whatever reason, for eating processed food, for other medical issues, it could be a thyroid contributing to that, whatever, again I’m not a medical practitioner here, but if they don’t address that, to me they’ll go around in circle forever and they’ll get depressed and say, “Why is this isn’t working for me?” And they’ll try everything and just go crazy experimenting but it won’t work until they get that, sort of, chemistry mix correct.

Jimmy: Absolutely. And I would even add one more thing that when people look at things, Melissa, and they are determining whether this lifestyle change, this diet, whatever change that they’ve made is working or not, they almost entirely predicate that on, is it causing me to lose weight. And I want to shift people’s brains away from that because I think it’s sinking sand for those who have been long term insulin resistant. I don’t have the ideal body weight. I will never have six pack abs but I don’t care because the way I eat makes me healthy. I’m not looking for, looking like Arnold Schwarzenegger’s body.

Melissa: Right.

Jimmy: …because I’m not him. I’m Jimmy Moore.

Melissa: Right. I think at some point, you have to – I have talked about this before in the show. There’s a whole mental issue which has to be addressed. If you’re coming from a place where you’ve been overweight or you’ve been a serial diet or for years, and years, and years, you’ve gone on and off processed food and all these things that’s pretty much, just in my case wrecked your health, you have to stand back and take a look at where you’re going and where you can go and what’s realistic. But you can’t, unfortunately, the “diet and fitness” industry has two things that they’ve pounded into our brains for decades and that’s one size fits all. If you use this machine or this diet program, it’s going to work for you which is bull because it’s a chemistry experiment as they say. Everybody’s body is a chemistry experiment not an in and out burger, literally and figuratively. And also, it all depends on what the other issues are that are going on which I learned in your health like mineral depletion. Do you have enough nutrients? Have you got the chemistry mixed right, so you can start burning fat rather than sugar. It’s complicated. It’s complicated and it’s really – I really think that average medical practitioners talking to people, this is what they should be focused on.

Jimmy: But they don’t know this stuff.

Melissa: They don’t! So it’s our job to educate them.

Jimmy: Because, number one, they’re not getting educated in medical school about this. They’re being taught pharmacological and physiological. They’re getting very little nutritional and lifestyle training. I’ve interviewed thousands of people on my shows and all the medical practitioners, I always ask that question. And I think the most I’ve ever heard, well, other than the naturopath’s which you expect them to have more than a couple of weeks, but, it’s about two weeks for most and even one Duke University student that I talked to recently, he said, 1-3 hours seminar. That’s it. On nutrition.

Melissa: You wonder why healthcare is where it is today. But I’m really encouraged that we can turn it around but that’s insulin resistance and other issues going on in your health to be some that has to be addressed by people who want to improve their health. And if losing weight is one of those issues, you have to look at all the factors, in my opinion, otherwise, you’re just going to go around chasing your tail and revert to the “diets and fitness industry” quick fixes that are available to you daily and by the minute on TV and everything.

Jimmy: And the good news is, it’s changing. We’re seeing a lot very brave practitioners standing up and saying, okay, enough is enough and we’re even seeing it in the 2015 Dietary Guidelines. I know you probably saw it from months back.

Melissa: Yeah, I was going to ask you about that.

Jimmy: We’re going to relax the things in February, that’s right. We’re going to relax the dietary cholesterol limitations. But one thing that was hidden in there, I just found out about this just today was they’re also letting go of the total fat restrictions because forever, they said keep your total fat to less than 30% of your total calories and blah blah blah. They’re not going to have any restrictions on dietary fat. Now the only problem with that, is, again, people will be left to their own devices. They’re going to choose these unhealthy Omega 6 vegetable oils that are loaded with polyunsaturated fats, which we talked about earlier not being good. And they’re going to avoid the saturated and the monounsaturated because again, what have we been told for decades? And so we’re going to obediently do that. So I hope they get a lilttle more explicit in telling people what the good fats are and that butter is probably a better idea than I can’t believe it’s not butter. And olive oil, the right kinds of olive oil is always going to be better than corn oil or avocado oil or macadamia oil is always going to be better than soybean oil, which is going to be in all your mayonnaise’s and salad dressings and all that. So, I think just the education in the coming years, that’s why shows like yours and mine are going to be so important in trying to educate this public is trying to figure out, what the heck do I do now but fat phobia is coming to an end.

Melissa: I’m really encouraged because since I got going in 2013 and have been around to various conferences, like all of them, and I want to say to people to definitely follow you on Twitter, Jimmy, because you got all these conferences and live tweet presentations.

Jimmy: That’s right.

Melissa: You can drop in if you’re at work or some place and you can’t go. And I”m talking, all over the world. I know you were one in Australia and I was watching the stream and go, “Oh, that’s what’s happening. Oh, that’s what so and so said.” And then you were at the San Francisco one [39:09 inaudible] conference I think and a bunch of them. It’s a great service for people who can’t travel to be there and have your views on what the people are doing. But I’ve seen, I remember talking to Abel James and Dave Asprey when were at this event in San Francisco and I was so angry and depressed about the way things are going and why people didn’t know all these things that I had just learned and they said, it’s going to change, but we have to get out there and spread the word.

Jimmy: Well, if you look at the top of podcasting charts right now on health podcast, it’s dominated by those of us in the paleo, real food, low carb community, Dave being the number one and Abel’s pretty close and mine is in the mix there too. So, I think we’re getting out there, but I think we’re going to – we haven’t even scratch the surface yet because I think once these things become a little more codified, so to speak, where the fat is not as bad as it was and cholesterol is not the great enemy that we always thought it was, I think once these things get out there, people are going to start Googling, “Hhmm I wonder if anybody has talked about this yet?” So, I’ve been out here over a decade now, talking about this. [laughs]

Melissa: You’re the pioneer.

Jimmy: I’m trying to provide, give the information and I think there’s a lot of people like yourself that are doing that as well.

Melissa: Yeah, and I’m very encouraged by what big companies are starting to do, like getting rid of hormones in chicken and small steps but…

Jimmy: Well, they have to.

Melissa: Yeah, and..

Jimmy: They’ve come to a point where they’re losing so much market share that they are desperate and I don’t know what Coca Cola is going to do. They are losing handover fist money.

Melissa: And those steps, when the big companies come on CNBC and say, we have to do this, it’s not a fad. We have to make these changes and we have to do this different things, you know that things are shifting. People are talking with their wallets and like people always say to me, we should boycott this. I say, no, just don’t buy it. [Laughs]

Jimmy: I totally credit social media and the internet itself for this wave of dissent so to speak that’s happening in our food culture as it relates to health, because without the internet, I would not be doing what I’m doing. Without social media, people wouldn’t learn about the Food Babe and all the ingredients that she exposes and all these foods and things that companies are doing, trying to put up faux pas one day, unfortunately, the food companies have gotten away with for decades. I think, all under the guise of this whole, low fat is healthy thing that really gave them a lot of cover for the kind of crap that they’re pulling on people.

Melissa: Yeah, and now people just started putting up with it. And they can find a community on Facebook or on Instagram or anywhere.

Jimmy: They Google the ingredients on all these foods before they buy. [laughs]

Melissa: Yeah. So, I mean, hurray! It’s going to creaet – the companies that don’t change are going to go out of business which is fine. And we’re going to find solutions. I’m very encouraged that there will be other ways to produce the amount of [42:03 inaudible] as well. We can produce the amount of food that’s going to be needed that it all has to be…

Jimmy: We got a local farmer’s market that I go to every Saturday and what was it – three or four years ago, it was just a tinie tiny little thing and now it’s this monstrosity. We’re not a big town where I live and this is monstrosity of a food palace of all these fresh, wonderful fruits and vegetables and herbs and spices, and meats, and eggs. It’s just a glorious place for someone to go buy real food that will nourish their body and it’s a beautiful thing to see these kinds of things growing while companies like McDonalds and Coca Cola are suffering.

Melissa: Yeah, and luckily, I’m out here in California and we’re like, we’ve got a farmer’s market. We have them everywhere and we also have the beautiful fresh organic fruits and vegetables and things all over the state. Even with the drought they’re still going good, but I also read some interesting information about these. They hydroponic vegetables that can be grown in cities. The efficient things that was on.

Jimmy: The greenhouses, yeah.

Melissa: Yeah, that’s super exciting. So there’s going to be a solution. It’s the age of entrepreneurs. I’m hopeful that way, which makes me much more – much happier.

Jimmy: That’s the ketones making you happy.

Melissa: That’s the ketones. That’s right. Where can people find you online? You’ve got two podcasts out there and a bunch of other properties, what are the addresses and where can they find you?

Jimmy: Sure. So, if people are interested in hearing my podcast, it’s the longest running health podcast on the internet today. We’re just about to hit episode 1000, Melissa, coming up on August. On the Livin La Vida Low Carb Show. It’s at thelivinlowcarbshow.com. I also have a blog that’s been out there even longer than my podcast called, The Livin Lavida Low Carb blog. livinlavidalowcarb.com/blog and then my two books the past couple of years that you mentioned, Cholesterol Clarity: What The HDL Is Wrong With My Numbers? at cholesterolclarity.com and then Keto Clarity – all about the low carb, high fat diet and all the health benefits from that ketoclarity.com

Melissa: And you have a cruise too.

Jimmy: Yeah, we do a cruise every May and it’s always a lot of fun. The low carb cruise, we invite on guest speakers to come and talk and basically give lectures on the high seas. So while we’re at – on the water heading towards some luxurious island we have a conference and it’s a whole lot of fun. People get to enjoy the exotic places that we go to and it’s always great. LowCarbCruiseinfo.com is the website. And then you mentioned my private podcast. I do a headlines driven podcast where we talk about all the health headlines. Kind of like what you and I did here the last half hour of this show where we just talk about what’s kind of going oin in the heatlh world. And that’s called Low Carb Conversations with Jimmy Moore Dietitan Cassie and Friends. It’s at lowcarbconversations.com

Melissa: Okay, we’ll put links in the show notes to those locations so people can find you. And also is it jimmymoore at Twitter? What’s your Twitter handle?

Jimmy: @livinlowcarbman on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, Pinterest. I’m out there, everywhere. [laughs]

Melissa: As I said, people, you should really follow him on Twitter, like I said, he’s at all these conferences and telling you what’s going on, who’s speaking and what the important research, summarized the whole thing, you’re like the live reporter, talking back.
So, it’s been great having you on Jimmy. Hopefully we can get you back on when you have time sometime down the road and talk a little bit more on insulin resistance and some of these things which like we said, don’t get that much attention, yet.

Jimmy: Yeah, thank you Melissa. I forgot one more book is coming out. I’ve been a book writing machine in the last few years and it’s a Ketogenic Cookbook. If you’re eating low carb, high fat and you’re like, I have o idea what to cook, we’ve come up to this Ketogenic Cookbook, me and my co-author Maria Emmerich who’s a very well known Ketogenic recipe maker and so, that’s coming out July 28th, 2015 and it’s available for presale right now.

Melissa: July 28th. Okay, we’ll put a link to that, the Amazon link so people can pre order it. Cookbook’s are always good. You can never have enough.

Jimmy: And there’s not really many out there with ketogenic diet because ketogenic is a little more intense than say a paleo diet. Paleo, you can throw starches in there. You can throw honey in there and maple syrup, but you can’t do that with a ketogenic diet so.

Melissa: Yeah, you got to be real careful. [crosstalk]

Jimmy: Getting a little more hard core, we got you hooked up.

Melissa: I’m definitely going to get that. So thanks so much Jimmy. We look forward to having you back on soon.

Jimmy: Thanks Melissa.

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